Contra Callers

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4369 discussions

When Did Gender Role Terms Become a "Problem"

by JohnFreem＠aol.com

I'm trying to make sense of the discussion of this and another forum I frequent. When did gender terminology become a "problem"? And, is it a problem that is this serious? I have been dancing and playing for dances since 1979, and calling since 1981. I "get" referring to "actives" and "inactives" as "ones" and "twos", or something similar, since modern contras tend to have both couples active most of the time. This I can deal with. I have run a family dance series since 1990 and also have led many school-age dances. Most dances I use for these events can easily be danced without reference to gender. This makes dancing much more easy for children to buy into. Leading historical dancing as part of learning about history does tend to go best if boys and girls dance the part of their gender. So, when did referring to males and females as something gender-neutral become the fashion? I've called many dances that had gender imbalances. Heck, one almost-a-dawn-dance I led had twice as many men to begin with. Those of us who wanted to dance danced the women's part. It wasn't a big deal. A popular square and contra dance I ran for many years had 80 or so women from a sorority show up one night. They were dressed in western attire. We just adapted the program to make them feel comfortable. (A side note to those who know our Pittsfield Grange. The band counted 15 squares this dance. The hall usually feels crowded with 8 squares.) The first time I remember resistance to gender roles was during the early 90s. Two of my female caller friends tried to change traditional square dance calls to more gender-free ones. This didn't work well at all for most singing squares! One of them wrote an article for the CDSS News that shared her viewpoint. I wrote a response that the editor heavily edited so that my point was completely missed. A caller/morris dancer from Minneapolis then "roasted" me in his response. This from a man who danced in an all-male morris side that women weren't allowed to join! This whole process forever soured me on the CDSS. I learned from many older callers, both square dance and contra, who followed the traditions of the communities they called for. To use artificial terms for communities that had no problem with gender terms was just wrong. I was especially offended by "outsider" callers trying to change things that had worked for sometimes generations. Who the heck are we to force our views on others? Things will change if there is a reason for them to change. Dancing is PLAY, not a means for social engineering. John B. Freeman

12 years, 5 months

Gender role names

by Allen Ortep

Considering the intense discussion this relatively straightforward topic has provoked, the United States Congress' inability to reach consensus should not surprise anyone The first letters of the Greek alphabet are alpha, beta, gamma, delta. The first letters of the Hebrew alphabet are aleph, beit, gimel and dalet A pair of these should suffice. Possibilities abound a) alphas and betas b) betas (or bets) and gammas (the shortened version "bets," has a single syllable, just like "men") Those who need an explicitly analogy to the sex roles can imagine boys and girls c) beits and gimels d) gims (monosyllabic shortening of gimel) and dalets Those who need an explicitly analogy to the sex roles can imagine guys and dolls

12 years, 5 months

true story

by Tom Hinds

Talent agent (who probably just had his coffee enema): TOM HINDS, ARE YOU AVAILABLE TO CALL A SQUARE DANCE ON SUCH AND SUCH DATE? Tom: Yes I'm free. What kind of........ Talent agent: GREAT! I'LL PUT YOU DOWN! click So I get to the gig and discover that the band plays top 40 music. The hundred or so dancers all wanted to dance and each square had about a 5 foot by 5 foot space. The band decided to play blues progressions. It was actually fun because I had to really adapt. T

12 years, 5 months

Introduction (and gender stuff)

by Aahz Maruch

Howdy, For those of you who know me (hi Alan!), I'm sure it's no surprise that I'm ignoring the standard advice to lurk on a list for a while, so I figured I should introduce myself: I'm a mid-40s cisgendered heterosexual white male, deaf with a cochlear implant (hearing-impaired my whole life). I've been contra dancing about a quarter-century, folk/square dancing a bit longer. These days I mostly think of myself as a contra dancer; square dancing is not much fun with my current level of hearing, and IFD (international folk dancing) is TOCOTOX [1] for this post. [1] Too COmplicated TO eXplain I lost my job in October and am taking something of a sabbatical. One thing I'm doing during this time is starting to write and call contra dances, which is how I landed here. I'm also starting to investigate calling squares -- talking ought to be easier than listening. ;-) Although I'm not genderqueer, I do what I call "performance genderfuck", playing with people's (and society's) expectations for "appropriate gender behavior". That includes gender-swapping at dances (often wearing a skirt); I can't remember when I started, but at least two decades ago. I also sometimes wear skirts at science fiction conventions. If you hunt down my other writing, you'll see a fair amount of "zie/zir" (gender-neutral pronouns), and outside discussion of gender, I rarely reveal my gender online. Now I'll tie this back somewhat to the current discussion: On Wed, Jan 02, 2013, Greg McKenzie wrote: > > I have no problem dancing the ladies part once or twice in an > evening,...but I would not drive two hours to do that all night. I > see that hint of "sexual tension" in the room at a dance as a core > part of what makes it fun. The energy of opposite tantric polarities > in close proximity is part of what drives the energy level at a dance. > I see it as an essential component. Most folks do social dancing, at > least in part, to interact with the opposite gender. We enjoy and > celebrate dancing with all kinds of folks, but I am hesitant about > changing the terminology to the extent that gender choice is not an > option. Actually, although I agree that the "sexual tension" is a large part of why I enjoy contra, I have driven an hour [2] to go to a gender-free contra where I had no expectation of dancing with a bi/heterosexual person of the opposite gender. And I'm going to the Queer Contra Dance Camp in April [3], mostly because I want to meet a man I've known online for a decade -- but of course I expect to have a lot of fun otherwise. [2] I find that for me an hour of driving is about as exhausting as 2-3 hours for most people -- I rarely go anywhere more than a half-hour away [3] http://www.lcfd.org/sf/DanceCamp/wcamp.html I really don't get "gender choice is not an option". As I said in another post, I agree that alternative gender terms are probably not going to gain widespread acceptance outside the gender-free dance community. But I do think it's a good idea for the dance community and the caller community to come to agreement about the "best" terms for gender-free calling. As this quote illustrates, I think I'm not particularly an outlier: On Wed, Jan 02, 2013, tavi merrill wrote: > > A friend of mine, a male in his 60s, describes his initial discomfort > at same-gender dance floor encounters giving way to an appreciation > for the inclusivity of the community. He still prefers to partner > heteronormatively, but he recognizes the value of making the dance > community as inclusive as it is, and on occasion actively supports > that value by partnering same-gender. I think that position describes > where a lot of dancers are. Whatever a person's experience of the > folkdance meta-community is, i believe we can agree that one thing > which sets it apart from other social spheres is its inclusivity. However, I'll note that as with science fiction fandom, we are almost certainly a lot less inclusive than we like to think (on several axes). -- Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/ <*> <*> <*> "I used to have a .sig but I found it impossible to please everyone..." --SFJ

12 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] Eye Contact

by Aahz Maruch

[starting a new thread] On Wed, Jan 02, 2013, Greg McKenzie wrote: > > The rule is to avoid eye contact with anyone with whom you are NOT > dancing. Do you have a cite for this rule? I've never heard it before in my quarter-century of dancing (folk, square, contra). I have, of course, heard the opposite of this rule, but P->Q does NOT imply !P->!Q. It also brings up the question of who am I "not" dancing with? From my POV, I'm at least potentially interacting with pretty much anyone on the dance floor (for example, grabbing someone in an adjacent line for a quick allemande or swing). -- Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/ <*> <*> <*> Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

12 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] When Did Gender Role Terms Become a "Problem"

by JohnFreem＠aol.com

Aha! Much of this makes sense...if you are programming a dance that is meant to be gender-free. This is a much different program than for an open public dance or a long-running traditional dance series. I am familiar with Chris. We attended American Week at Pinewoods together once or twice during the early 90s. I can understand an LGBT group being very sensitive about gender roles. What I object to is forcing this same naming system on the rest of us. Most dancers I know much prefer that gender roles be kept, with the understanding that one might choose to dance the other part if there is a gender imbalance. John B. Freeman

12 years, 5 months

YouTube of contra dancing to entice nondancers?

by Leslie Gotfrit

I'm a new contra caller who does community/family dances, kitchen parties and one night stands. I'm calling a dance for about 60 adults, almost none of whom have even heard of contra dancing, but they do know each other. The organizers have asked for a YouTube that would convey the fun of contra dancing, without scaring off newbies. I've looked at dozens and can't find one where 1. The calls and music are heard (otherwise they'll really wonder what they are paying me and the band for) 2. People are having fun (but not twirling and flourishing so much people will think they need to be experts 3. The dancers look a bit "cool" and aren't all on the other side of middle aged (it's a young adult crowd and most people in my (red)neck of the woods only know about western squares,/retired couples in costumes) 4. The quality of the filming and music recording is good or great (again, to avoid the hokey label). 5. Does all of that in under five minutes. I know it's a tall order. Any suggestions? I'll take 4/5. Leslie Sent from my iPad On 2013-01-02, at 7:00 PM, callers-request(a)sharedweight.net wrote: > Send Callers mailing list submissions to > callers(a)sharedweight.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > callers-request(a)sharedweight.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > callers-owner(a)sharedweight.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Callers digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Alternate Role Terms (Jeff Kaufman) > 2. Re: Alternate Role Terms (Perry Shafran) > 3. Re: gender (Perry Shafran) > 4. Re: Square Dance Tunes (rich sbardella) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 10:38:09 -0500 > From: Jeff Kaufman <jeff(a)alum.swarthmore.edu> > To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Alternate Role Terms > Message-ID: > <CAK36jCOM7L2=QKdobJXzm3MJrxYvzt=fx-vDZk7Vn-SQ_iduWA(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 5:52 PM, Chrissy Fowler <ktaadn_me(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> It does seem that some women dancers depend on leadership >> from the gent role, and some men dancers feel pressure to direct >> the non-gent role dancers. But I don't think there's any lead/follow >> component inherent in the contra dance form. >> > > To some dancers the lead/follow aspect of contra dance is central > while to others it's a minor component or an unwelcome intrusion. > Viewing it as lead/follow is more common among younger dancers, more > frequent dancers, and varies by dance series (in MA it's common at the > Scout House and Greenfield, rare at Medway and Northboro.) > > Jeff > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 08:08:35 -0800 (PST) > From: Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> > To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Alternate Role Terms > Message-ID: > <1357142915.76089.YahooMailNeo(a)web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > It would be interesting to know why some of these younger folks view it as a lead/follow dance.?? Is it the flourishes/dips that do indeed have a lead/follow aspect to the dance, becoming the focal point of why they dance?? Or is it something else?? Contra by its very nature is a community dance, and while it does have some couple aspects, I find it difficult to see where it could bring someone to view it as lead/follow.? In an evening of dance, both men and women usually have their opportunities to "lead" a move.? Even the swing is an equal move - both dancers move around a common point and are both expected to carry their own weight, whereas in a couples dance the lead does indeed guide the follow on where to go.? > > Perry > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Jeff Kaufman <jeff(a)alum.swarthmore.edu> > To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net> > Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 10:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Callers] Alternate Role Terms > > On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 5:52 PM, Chrissy Fowler <ktaadn_me(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> It does seem that some women dancers depend on leadership >> from the gent role, and some men dancers feel pressure to direct >> the non-gent role dancers.? But I don't think there's any lead/follow >> component inherent in the contra dance form. >> > > To some dancers the lead/follow aspect of contra dance is central > while to others it's a minor component or an unwelcome intrusion. > Viewing it as lead/follow is more common among younger dancers, more > frequent dancers, and varies by dance series (in MA it's common at the > Scout House and Greenfield, rare at Medway and Northboro.) > > Jeff > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)sharedweight.net > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 08:12:42 -0800 (PST) > From: Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> > To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] gender > Message-ID: > <1357143162.59466.YahooMailNeo(a)web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > There are several issues here.? One is the terminology that is used to > differentiate the two dance roles and second, whether we will ever move > contra dancing to a completely gender-free system. > > I think that > we all have to understand that everyone has their own comfort zone.? > Some people do NOT want to dance with a same-gendered person no matter > how much you prod them, shame them, or even force them to do so.?? Some > are willing to try it from time to time, others enjoy it a lot, and others want to make all > contra dances completely gender free regardless of whether or not it > will chase some members from the community.? > > It is a strong > uphill battle to at least move from a heteronormative way of thinking.? > Just recently it was suggested that the way to get someone to contra > dance (a man) was to tell him that a > new woman will be thrown into his arms every 30 seconds.? Reason being > that most people are heterosexual and might be drawn to dance thinking > he's going to dance with women.? I suggested that this was a bad idea > due to the fact that in most dances you'll see men dancing with men, > women dancing with women, and people switching roles.? > > I think > that the best compromise is to continue with the gents/ladies > terminology, but emphasize that these are merely titles of traditional > roles, but anyone can play them regardless of physical gender.? That is > what I say in my workshops, and it's usually generally understood.? Any > new terminology that you use will force people to translate which means > "man" and which means "woman".?? However, I do understand the baggage > that these gender-loaded terms do bring.?? > > > Perry > > > > ________________________________ > From: JoLaine Jones-Pokorney <jolaine(a)gmail.com> > To: callers(a)sharedweight.net; callers-request(a)sharedweight.net > Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 9:23 AM > Subject: [Callers] gender > > In reply to Read who said "When gendered terms are used, people are more > likely to sort themselves by gender. Newcomers are unlikely to even > consider the possibility of not doing so." > I disagree.? When I teach the introductory workshop I say, "You will see > women dancing the men's role and men dancing the women's role."? They see > this happening immediately, even in the introductory workshop.? In our > community, men dancing the women's role is less common, but it will happen > at least once at each dance so newcomers are seeing it. > We often get new women who want to dance the men's role so that they can > dance with their women friends that they came with.? Of course this isn't a > great plan since they're all newbies, but my point is that they don't > hesitate to switch roles. > I find that the long-time contra dancers are often the ones who are less > willing.? At a dance just a few days ago, I asked a woman to dance.? Right > beside us were two men dancing together.? She declared that it was silly > for two men to dance together when there were women available to dance > with.? Another time I asked a woman to dance and she said she would if she > couldn't find a man to dance with.? Another time I was lined up with my > woman partner when two men came running over and declared "We know you'd > rather dance with us!" and one of them grabbed my partner away and the > other one grabbed me.? These are long time dancers who are operating under > the notion that a couple equals one man and one woman and anything else is > only to be tolerated if the ideal cannot be had. > So perhaps a non-gendered term would help the long-time dancers more than > the new dancers!? I notice that in this conversation thread - no one has > actually proposed another option.? I've thought it ought to be something > totally random like "blue" and "yellow" but a shift that drastic just > wouldn't happen I don't think. > I'm reminded of the time I was asked to call a gender-free dance where > where they were using "bands and bares."? I spent a tremendous amount of > time practicing calling bands and bares and getting dances I felt > comfortable calling that way.? IN the introductory workshop, I was passing > out bandanas for the bands and one man was asking his friend what I meant > by the "bands."? She said to him - "She means the mens part."? I thought > why did I just bother to learn bare and band when they're just thinking > women and men? > > -- > JoLaine Jones-Pokorney > > "We are as gods and might as well get good at it!" > - Stewart Brand > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)sharedweight.net > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 08:33:37 -0800 (PST) > From: rich sbardella <richsbardella(a)snet.net> > To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Square Dance Tunes > Message-ID: > <1357144417.42841.YahooMailClassic(a)web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > Hello folks! > I am interested in finding some good modal tunes for squares.? Any suggestions? > Rich Sbardella > Stafford, CT > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)sharedweight.net > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers > > > End of Callers Digest, Vol 101, Issue 4 > ***************************************

12 years, 5 months

Re: [Callers] YouTube of contra dancing to entice nondancers?

by Chris Weiler (home)

Hi Leslie, Try this one out. It's not my favorite way to portray the dance community (because of the comments on "segregating" and the focus only the younger part of the communty instead of the inclusiveness of it), but it might be what you need to get your group excited about the dance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuPbte5knOY Chris Weiler Craftsbury, VT On 1/2/2013 4:16 PM, Leslie Gotfrit wrote: > I'm a new contra caller who does community/family dances, kitchen parties and one night stands. I'm calling a dance for about 60 adults, almost none of whom have even heard of contra dancing, but they do know each other. The organizers have asked for a YouTube that would convey the fun of contra dancing, without scaring off newbies. I've looked at dozens and can't find one where 1. The calls and music are heard (otherwise they'll really wonder what they are paying me and the band for) 2. People are having fun (but not twirling and flourishing so much people will think they need to be experts 3. The dancers look a bit "cool" and aren't all on the other side of middle aged (it's a young adult crowd and most people in my (red)neck of the woods only know about western squares,/retired couples in costumes) 4. The quality of the filming and music recording is good or great (again, to avoid the hokey label). 5. Does all of that in under five minutes. > > I know it's a tall order. Any suggestions? I'll take 4/5. > > Leslie > >

12 years, 5 months

Last minute New years idea

by Louie.cromartie

Hello Friends! Many of you will be calling dances tomorrow night. Wouldn't it be fun if we all called the same dance at 11:30-ish pm? We could all share a wider-community experience within our respective time zones. I was thinking about something like 333, but am looking for any ideas especially if you would like to participate. If we can settle on something and post it to F-book by tonight it might work! Louie Cromartie

12 years, 5 months

Gender Role Terms

by Hgrastorf＠aol.com

I vote for "Leddies" -- which means ladies OR laddies OR leddies (the ones who are led) for those who end the swing on the right and change sides during a "leddies" chain. And "Gens" -- the "other" gender role -- those who end a swing on the left and who do not change sides during a chain. Alternatives I've read so far seem strained and clumsy. April Blum In a message dated 1/3/2013 3:08:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, callers-request(a)sharedweight.net writes: Send Callers mailing list submissions to callers(a)sharedweight.net

12 years, 5 months

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