Hi Don,
Whoops - I read "wrist hook" and thought we were back on
stars! "Wrist hook" allemandes? What a terrible concept! Yes, I recall
a couple of people putting their arms in very strange positions,
sometimes as you describe.
My response to this and to allemanders who pull my arm
towards them is to remove all resistance - I am there to dance, not to
arm wrestle in any way. I get some strange looks, but I protect my body
(I have had two major shoulder operations so far!). Sometimes they will
work out why for themselves, and quite often, if they see me later they
will ask why I did that and I get the chance to explain a more friendly
technique. It is very difficult for me to broach the subject as most
people can't distinguish between constructive criticism/advice and
personal insult. But if they ask me I can try to establish some rapport
and give them some tips.
The same applies to people who lean back in swings - I just
move my hand from their shoulder-blade to their hip and they have to
readjust their lean so that they don't fall over (I don't want another
shoulder operation!).
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
07802 940 574
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events & DVDs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
From: Don Veino <sharedweight_net(a)veino.com>
John, I agree with you on the saddle-style/classic Eastern star. What I
was referring to are the very infrequent individuals I encounter that
want to do an allemande by "hooking" my offered upright hand with their
closed fist & wrist-cocked lower forearm. I have no idea where they got
this but there are a couple of gents in my area that do this as their
standard move.
Previously:
>From an earlier post - I also abhor the "wrist hook" allemande.
My experience is the exact opposite. I have never felt any discomfort
in a box star, but often have problems in a hands-across star. In a
hands-across star you can often get your hand gripped uncomfortably by
the person opposite, or yanked off-centre by them, or it devolves into
an uncomfortable lump in the middle, especially when someone decides
that the two pairs of hands need to be joined (they don't) and uses
their thumb to clamp all the hands together.
I was taught this a long time ago:
Rule #1: Everyone has the right to get on the dance-floor and have fun
without getting injured.
Another key rule is:
Always start at zero tension and build up to the minimum that you need
to execute the move.
For example, when you start an Allemande you don't need any tension
other than that necessary to hold your hand up in the air. It is only as
you gain angular momentum that you need to tense up to counter the
centrifugal force, keeping your body in the same relative position and
your hand in the middle. The tension should increase steadily and
equally so that you maintain a good counter-balance.
Another good example is the box star. You just gently hook your hand
over the person in front. You don't apply any pressure in any way; you
just hook your fingers so that you are connected to the person in front.
During the star, IF you feel the need to hurry the star, YOU have the
OPTION to speed up and pull the person behind you a little faster. If
anyone in the star feels uncomfortable as the star speeds up they can
just straighten their fingers so that their hand slides off.
Too many dancers use unnecessary force. They need to learn that it is
about technique, not strength. And if you are leading a lady into
twirls or swing variations then a strong lead is about clarity, not
about strength.
As callers I believe we should all slip a couple of brief hints into our
calling every time we call. There are always newcomers at events, so we
can direct the hints to them in the hope that some of the "experienced"
dancers will pick them up.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
07802 940 574
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events & DVDs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
From: Don Veino <sharedweight_net(a)veino.com>
>From an earlier post - I also abhor the "wrist hook" allemande. When I
encounter that I always attempt to shift to a hand grip. Failing success
on that I simply let go. It can do a real job on your tendons, not to
mention the sweat factor... :(
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I hate it when people stick their fingers up straight
as well, or twist their wrists over so mine is bent backwards, or try to
arm wrestle while dancing.
For me a good Allemande hold is as shown in your photo
reference, but with the thumbs unlocked so that they are lying beside
the fingers.
Yes, people always used to interlock their thumbs - that is
how I was first taught it many, many years ago.
But the dancing has changed. What has happened is that
people now like to spin out of Allemandes; and Rory O'Mores are more
prevalent, where you spin out of an Allemande-type hold. If someone has
locked my thumb I can't spin! You say that it is easy to disengage when
the thumbs are interlocked. That is not my experience. I really, really
hate it when people hold on to me so that I can't enjoy the dancing. It
is definitely easier to disengage if the thumbs aren't interlocked.
Dance styles evolve, and this is an example of a good change
as far as I am concerned.
Let's all work on getting rid of thumbs from dancing! :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
07802 940 574
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events & DVDs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
From: Jeff Kaufman <jeff(a)alum.swarthmore.edu>
>
> I dance dozens of different dance styles and have never ever found any
> circumstance in dancing where you should use your thumb.
People disagree on this:
The thumbless allemande is one of my pet peeves, particularly that
rigid palm-only grip with the fingers flexed back and pointing
straight up. And the first time a dancer tried that hideous
wrist-to-wrist thing on me, I was so suprised I, rather
undiplomatically, laughed and blurted "What the hell was that?"
Bless his heart, he never tried it again.
I heard Lisa Greenleaf do a nice description of a good grip in her
Safe Contras workshop at NEFFA a few years ago. She put the emphasis
on hooking together the meaty parts at base of the thumbs so that
you're making the connection with nice strong muscle instead of
vulnerable fingers. The fingers can then curl gently around your
partner's hand without squeezing. What you get is a firm grip that
can take all the weight of an allemande, but can be easily
disengaged so that you take all of your digits with you into the
next move. -- Sarah Gowan
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=388018017325
<https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=388018017325&id=34955
7932325> &id=349557932325
What I think of as a good aleman grip:
http://i.imgur.com/9ZZr0.jpg
Jeff
My all time favourite dance to do with groups including children is Old
King Glory. It is a playparty which is sung by all while it is danced. I
learned it directly from Marian Rose, an amazing dance teacher in
Vancouver, BC. Here is the link I found online to a document by Marian,
which includes Old King Glory as well as several other great dances. If you
have any questions about how to do it, you can contact me and we can talk
about it. I can say that *every single time* I do this dance with kids
someone says, "Let's do it again!"
Maura Volante
Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:28:07 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Sarah Ziegi <sarah_ziegi(a)yahoo.com>
>
> To: "callers(a)sharedweight.net" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: [Callers] Elementary School Family Dance
> Message-ID:
> <1331663287.39350.YahooMailNeo(a)web112701.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hello everyone,
> I'm calling for a family dance in a few days with mostly
> elementary-school-age children with a sprinkling of parental figures. I
> have a decent program, but I was wondering if any of you have a
> particularly favorite dance to try with a group like this. I'd like to add
> something new to my repertoire if possible.
> Thanks for any help!
>
> All the best,
> Sarah VanNorstrand
> Syracuse, NY
>
>
> -
This is a problem for my wrists, too. It can cause enough pain to bring tears to my eyes so I've taken a direct approach. With a friendly (I hope) smile, I put my opposite hand on the back of the other person's hand & gently push to straighten out the bend. This is often baffling to my co-allemander; the ones who care ask me then or later why I did that. I'm grateful that so many are truly curious and willing to alter the angle. A couple of friends have told me they still have no idea they are bending my wrist until I tell them. I can see that it might be a little trickier for a man to do this with another man....
-----Original Message-----
>From: Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com>
>Sent: Mar 13, 2012 3:17 PM
>To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
>Subject: Re: [Callers] Re Allemande Hold (was Analysis of Stars)
>
>Speaking of allemandes - is there ANY way to teach experienced dancers to not bend their wrists when they allemande? The wrist is supposed to be straight, not bent, as bending can cause pain to the other person's wrist (generally mine). Nowadays when I find a person allemande with a bent wrist I go ahead and keep mine straight and sacrifice a good allemande with weight for protecting my arm and wrist.
>
>As for thumbs, I protect my thumb in an allemande or a wavy line by keeping it close to my hand, not straight up ready to be grasped. I found that by "dancing defensively" in this manner I can protect all my digits and limbs and continue on the joy of dancing longer!
>
>Perry
>
>--- On Tue, 3/13/12, Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>From: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net>
>Subject: Re: [Callers] Re Allemande Hold (was Analysis of Stars)
>To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
>Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 3:08 PM
>
>As a dancer my personal solution to the Rory o more situation has been to have an old fashioned allemande grip for the first balance, as I balance away and have a little momentum to help tear the hands apart, I switch to an ECD hold, kind of like what you do for a balance before a swing, then it is only curved fingers, which actually give plenty of oomph to the spin, but also disengage easily. I don't spin out of allemandes as much, maybe because few women give enough connection to do so, in fact there is often no time for such a flourish because the connection is too weak to accelerate the allemande. This has nothing to do with the position of our hands or fingers or thumbs, but more a refusal to engage the whole arm so the presence of their body can be felt. I love a zesty dance weekend where a high proportion of women connect. I think by and large, we all wrap our fingers around the base of the other person's thumb, often enough with our
> thumbs also loosely curled arou
> nd. The only time I recently remember being 'gripped' was by a terrified newbie who seemed to want to hold on in hopes we would all help him get where he needed to be. Although it hurt, I was sorry for his fear and simply slid my thumb straight down. Like catching a falling pencil, it is pretty hard for someone to hold your thumb if you pull straight down.
>Cheers,
>Andrea
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Mar 13, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Ron Nelson <callerman(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> John Sweeny wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, people always used to interlock their thumbs - that is
>>> how I was first taught it many, many years ago.
>>>
>>> But the dancing has changed. What has happened is that
>>> people now like to spin out of Allemandes; and Rory O'Mores are more
>>> prevalent, where you spin out of an Allemande-type hold. If someone has
>>> locked my thumb I can't spin! You say that it is easy to disengage when
>>> the thumbs are interlocked. That is not my experience. I really, really
>>> hate it when people hold on to me so that I can't enjoy the dancing. It
>>> is definitely easier to disengage if the thumbs aren't interlocked.
>>>
>>> Dance styles evolve, and this is an example of a good change
>>> as far as I am concerned.
>>>
>>> Let's all work on getting rid of thumbs from dancing! :-)
>>>
>>
>> Ron Nelson adds:
>>
>> I could not agree more. As one who suffers from arthritis in my hands, I can testify that the thumb is particularly susceptible to abuse and subsequent pain.
>> I try to avoid any grip which might entrap and discomfort.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
>> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>_______________________________________________
>Callers mailing list
>Callers(a)sharedweight.net
>http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>_______________________________________________
>Callers mailing list
>Callers(a)sharedweight.net
>http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
Bree Kalb, LCSW
301 W. Weaver St.
Carrboro, NC 27510
919-932-6262 ext 216
Regarding the Use of Email -- Please Note: Although I use a firewall and my
computer is password protected, my emails are not encrypted. Therefore, I
cannot guarantee confidentiality of email communication. If you choose to
communicate confidential information with me via email, I will assume that
you have made an informed decision and I will view it as your agreement to
take the risk that email may be intercepted. Please be aware that email is
never an appropriate vehicle for emergency communication. If you are
canceling an appointment less than 48 hours in advance, please
also leave me a voice mail message at my office.
“The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, then I can change.” Carl Rogers
On thumbs and allemandes:
A good friend of mine is sensitive to the 'dreaded thumb lock', and has showed me exactly why. He's right. It's AWFUL. His strategy is to keep his thumb beside (n line with) his fingers, everything else is the same in the 'mitten grip'. I've tried it myself, it works great. (And for those who don't believe it re. the thumb lock, get a friend to practice with you. Do the bent thumb allemande and tell them to press down hard with their thumb. Then try to extricate yourself. Ouch.)
This particular thumb-free (or perhaps "thumb-safe") allemande grip is no different than the bent thumb grip. (Thus, I disagree heartily with the FB person Jeff quoted.)
What makes the allemande feel great is the "connection" of the shared muscle tension in upper arms, the position of fingers around base of thumb of the other person's hand, and the straight wrist.
I once heard some great caller point out that you are engaging your upper arm muscle when you allemande - not your shoulder, not your wrist, not your fingers, and definitely not your thumb. Which is to say it's the shared, elastic tension that makes the allemande a great ride.
Chrissy Fowler
Belfast, ME
Hello everyone,
I'm calling for a family dance in a few days with mostly elementary-school-age children with a sprinkling of parental figures. I have a decent program, but I was wondering if any of you have a particularly favorite dance to try with a group like this. I'd like to add something new to my repertoire if possible.
Thanks for any help!
All the best,
Sarah VanNorstrand
Syracuse, NY
Hi Jeff,
Yes, it varies considerably in practice. The thumb serves no
purpose by being underneath. But if it is underneath then it allows the
possibility of gripping. I always teach to put it on top to prevent
gripping.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
07802 940 574
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events & DVDs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
From: Jeff Kaufman <jeff(a)alum.swarthmore.edu>
John Sweeney wrote:
>
> There is no grip - the thumb is supposed to be on top along with all
> the fingers.
I'm sure this varies, but that's not the way I've learned it. Dancing in
the Boston area I've always put the thumb under. It's a very lose
'grip',
http://www.cdss.org/elibrary/dart/images/star_plummer.jpg
It's blurry, but I think three of the dancers have their thumbs under
and only the top dancer has their thumb on top.
People have been saying that you don't give weight in box stars, but
they are missing the point. It is not about giving weight, it is about
connection.
I hate the term "giving weight" anyway, it is much too easily
misunderstood and abused.
First, please don't call it a wrist-grip star. There is no grip - the
thumb is supposed to be on top along with all the fingers. There are
lots of other good names: box star, pack-saddle star, wrist-hold star,
wrist-lock star (especially when you have a star for six and it looks
like the lock that sword-dancers make!).
Choreography has changed. Most old dances that have a Star or a Circle
include a second one in the opposite direction. It doesn't matter how
far you travel in the Star Right as long as you travel the same distance
back in the Star Left. But modern choreographers use sequences such as
Circle Left, Star Right. Both moves are in the same direction so you
have to travel two full circles to get back to where you started.
This is much easier if you have connection and can help each other.
Types of star:
1. The bunch of bananas/lump of limp lettuce:
Sadly this is probably the most common type of star. Everyone just
sticks their hand in the middle, possibly grasping some random part of
someone else's hand. Looks a mess, can feel unpleasant, and really
doesn't help with connection!
2. Right Hands Across:
You take a handshake (actually just hooked fingertips) with the person
opposite. This gives good connection (but only for two pairs of people)
and is especially useful if the next move involves the men dropping out
so that the ladies can chain across. Also best if you are in waltz-time
or balancing the star. I don't believe that it is as easy as a box star,
for example you can get fumbling as you decide which pair of hands is on
top, or exactly which hold you are going for.
But the biggest failure of the Hands Across star is the lack of
connection between the couples. If the star needs to go faster to meet
the demands of modern choreography then there is nothing you can do
about it - if you accelerate you can affect the person across from you,
but you both just crash into the backs of the slower moving pair.
3. Palm Star:
(From Callerlab) "Place all hands together with fingers pointing up and
thumbs closed gently over the back of the adjacent dancer's hand to
provide a degree of stabilization. Arms should be bent slightly so that
the height of the handgrip will be at an average eye level."
Very pretty, but absolutely no use whatsoever for connection.
And I really don't like the bit about thumbs. I dance dozens of
different dance styles and have never ever found any circumstance in
dancing where you should use your thumb. Thumbs hurt and prevent people
letting go (I have seen dancers get their arms wrenched in a Grand Right
& Left because the person they just passed won't let go - they shouldn't
be holding on in the first place!).
4. Box Star
Each person hooks their hand (thumbs on top with the fingers) over the
wrist of the person in front. Now we have connection between all four
people.
Once people have learnt this it is by far the easiest good star to make
- you start walking and place your hand in a pre-defined position with
no question as to where it is supposed to be. If you are coming out of
a Ladies' Chain or a Right & Left Through then the man just moves his
hand to the lady's wrist and you have half a star before you even start
the move.
But the connection is the key - you are linked together so that you move
at the same speed. If someone realises that the star needs to move
faster then they can accelerate, helping the person behind, who just by
the connection is automatically helping the person behind them, and the
person behind them, and the person behind them - oh! that's you! It is
all one - you share the energy and you get to your destination together
and on time. Beautiful!
If you want to read more about connection see:
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#connection
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
07802 940 574
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events & DVDs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
