Bev wrote:
"Greg's point (assuming that I've understood it correctly) about the health
care system in the US potentially contributing to the litigious behavior of
Americans, is an interesting one that I think is valid."
I would use the word "system" with caution regarding health care in this country. In the USA suing after an accident is too often a necessity, not an option. Medical expenses here are the major cause of bankruptcy. And experience shows that every health care system--no matter where, or how excellent--will get lots of complaints. This is true even for universal, single-payer systems like Canada's. Wait times are a form of rationing. Here in the USA the very wealthy get excellent health care. For the rest of us, health care is severely rationed and wait times can be extensive. Health care is a pay-to-play game here.
Just a thought,
Greg
>Message: 2
>Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 12:00:51 -0500
>From: Martha Edwards <meedwards(a)westendweb.com>
>
>But it's not only Canada that has nice people.
>
>Hmph.
<chuckle> Oh geez Martha! You wanna take this personally?? You go gurl.
Perhaps you might re-read my earlier posts. At no point did I even remotely
suggest that a) only Canada had nice people or b) there weren't nice people
in the US?!?! All of my American friends are much more than nice. Sheesh....
The topic of caller insurance has come up for discussion on this list at
least 3 times since Chris and Seth created it back in.... how long ago was
that now? 2004? My recollection is that every time it's come up, people have
posted stories where someone considered suing or did sue or someone sued on
their behalf, as happened in this thread. They've never been Canadian
stories, and yes that may purely be a function of the low percentage of
Canadians participating on this list. But every time this comes up it makes
me anxious about calling in the US and I poke around trying to figure out
how to protect myself against the 1 in a million chance that something might
actually happen.
Greg's point (assuming that I've understood it correctly) about the health
care system in the US potentially contributing to the litigious behavior of
Americans, is an interesting one that I think is valid. All I'll say about
health care is that had Ron's story happened here, the woman with the gash
on her head would have been waiting an excruciatingly long time in an ER in
Toronto, likely would have given up and driven the 1.5 hours to Buffalo NY
to have it attended to there! By the sounds of it, she probably would have
sued the ER in Toronto too...!
I really appreciate both David and Dave posting stories about situations
that could have progressed to a litigious state, but didn't. Particularly
Dave's. I believe that the majority of people have a sense of personal
responsibility and no fault accidents. To your questions Dave, I currently
have insurance to cover personal injury to me while travelling in the US.
But when I investigated the first time caller insurance came up, I couldn't
find a carrier that would cover me for a personal injury that might happen
to someone else at an event that I was calling. The carriers that I talked
to at the time said that if the injury to the other person happened without
my personal physical involvement/contact (meaning I didn't hit them, crash
into them, push them etc.), I wasn't liable. Potentially things have changed
since and I need to investigate again.
Similar to Dave's group and I'm sure all others, TCD pays insurance to the
church where we hold our regular dances. The Anglican Church here has a
standard insurance policy for groups that use their sites/facilities
covering property damage and general liability. It's not specific to dancing
as it covers all activities on the premises. If a dancer got hurt in the
hall, they could sue the church but the policy would cover that. I just
don't see a clear path to suing the caller. But Dave, better check with CDSS
before ya get yourself hired here in Toronto, just to be sure :-)
My take away from this thread is the reminder that in absence of caller's
insurance, I need to be particularly vigilant about looking at venues I work
in for potential hazards, and mention them to the crowd early and often. Its
best practice regardless of country or insurance and I like to think that I
already do it, perhaps not with such a critical eye. I'm calling at a dance
weekend in OH in the summer at a venue with an obvious hazard. It has a row
of poles down the centre of the hall. One might think that such an obvious
hazard might not need mentioning but I intend to do it. And you can bet your
dance shoes that I'll be looking for the fire extinguishers!
Bev
-----Original Message-----
From: The Witful Turnip [mailto:wturnip@sympatico.ca]
Sent: April 4, 2010 7:48 PM
To: 'callers(a)sharedweight.net'
Subject: RE: Caller Insurance
One last point of clarification about my own comment below:
>I'm calling at a dance weekend in OH in the summer at a venue with an
>obvious hazard. It has a row of poles down the centre of the hall. One
>might think that such an obvious hazard might not need mentioning but I
>intend to do it.
The organizers of this weekend had already begun planning to protect against
this hazard when they picked the venue. I have absolutely no doubt that they
will address it as best as they possibly can. My reminding people to be
careful would be in addition to their conscientious planning. I don't want
anyone to think that they hadn't considered the problem.
Bev
Bev wrote:
>Not that I'm suggesting that something like this would "never" happen in
>Canada, but I believe it's safe to say that the likelihood is *much* lower.
>There are many reason why I don't want to live in the US and this is a
>perfect example of one of them.
You are certainly lucky to have single payer universal health care in Canada. If we, someday, develop a civilized health care policy here in the U.S.A., I'm sure that we would still need to purchase caller's insurance. Though I expect that it would be even cheaper than it is currently. We could still be sued, but not for medical expenses. Contra dances--and many other community events--would be easier and probably less expensive to organize.
Just a thought,
Greg
>Here is a story that happened to a friend of mine. <snip...>
>It caused a gash which had to be attended to in an emergency room.
>
>The lady sued the city, the dance club sponsoring the dance, the fire
>extinguisher manufacturer, AND THE CALLER, whom she contended should have
>warned her about the danger.
>
>Whether she won the suit or not, it still must be defended. Insurance is
>indispensable. If you don't have it, get it. It's not expensive and it can
>save you so much aggravation should an accident occur.
>
>Ron Nelson
Not that I'm suggesting that something like this would "never" happen in
Canada, but I believe it's safe to say that the likelihood is *much* lower.
There are many reason why I don't want to live in the US and this is a
perfect example of one of them. I'm curious to know if this was a one night
stand or a regular dance. And if a regular dance, if that particular lady
was someone who regularly attended that dance, or was someone there for the
first time.
Unfortunately, all these stories do (and I do understand that they likely
make up a *very* small percentage of occurrences)is make me wonder if I
should be calling in the US.... And that seems a real shame to me. <sigh>
Bev
p.s. I've had one person respond to me directly about this and he wisely
mentioned that there are other caller lists that I don't participate in, and
potential callers who don't participate in those or use email. Therefore
it's difficult for me to get a sense of whether there's an interest and
critical mass in Canada to investigate coverage here.
Thanks to everyone to replied to my query about insurance. I've considered it off and on over the years; it probably made more sense when I was touring a lot. I'll probably sign up any way.
Bree Kalb
Carrboro, NC
Regarding the Use of Email -- Please Note: Although I use a firewall and my
computer is password protected, my emails are not encrypted. Therefore, I
cannot guarantee confidentiality of email communication. If you choose to
communicate confidential information with me via email, I will assume that
you have made an informed decision and I will view it as your agreement to
take the risk that email may be intercepted. Please be aware that email is
never an appropriate vehicle for emergency communication.
Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 07:53:58 -0500
> From: Martha Edwards <meedwards(a)westendweb.com>
> To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Caller's insurance
> Message-ID:
> <z2x7d8d864a1004010553q5b90016el94ecdc2439faba1e(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> I **cannot recall a single instance in the twenty years that I have been
> dancing that a dancer sued anyone for anything. But there was an
> *insurance company* that sued our dance group to recover costs associated
> with a dancer who fell and broke a wrist. So even though we are a
> remarkably un-litigious group of people, it's not just dancers who
> might sue, and insurance for the hall, the dance group and even the
> caller is a smart idea.
>
> Thank you CDSS for making it easy and affordable for us to purchase!
I have life, disability, car and condo insurance. I believe in having
insurance that ideally, as David mentioned, I never need to use. And I would
like to have callers insurance. However, it is NOT easy for me to get it. As
a Canadian and resident of Canada, even though I'm a CDSS member in good
standing, I was not eligible for this insurance when it was covered by
Callerlab. The preliminary answer from CDSS (Jeff is currently on vacation)
suggests that this has not changed even though the carrier has changed. It's
disappointing.
I attempted to do some digging here in Canada to see if there was some
equivalent coverage when CDSS first told me I wasn't eligible. I got nowhere
at the time and gave up. But since I'm calling more and more in the US at
bigger events, it does concern me that I could be vulnerable.
I'd appreciate it if the Canadian callers on this list that have an interest
in pursuing insurance would email me directly. I'm curious to know how many
we are.
Thanks,
Bev
Bree asked, "...can you say more about the reasons to have insurance?"
One simple and practical reason is that many halls now require proof of
insurance before they will let a dance group-- or others, for that matter-- use
the facility. Having this slip of paper has made it possible for our band to
hold a monthly dance in the local town hall. Without it, no way.
And then there's the reason that I've not needed so far, which is someone
falling down on the dance floor and getting seriously injured, and sueing the
caller, having decided that it's your fault-- not controlling the crowd
properly, failure to give adequate warning of the dangers involved, not giving
proper safety precautions, choosing a dance that was inappropriate for that
particular crowd. Sure, you might well win the case in court, but it'd be nice
to have the insurance company paying for your defense. Unlikely? Yep, but so are
many other litigious situations in which people find themselves.
Someone died at a dance where I was calling but there was no legal action
involved in that one. Still, not fun...
I figure that caller's insurance is like any other kind of insurance... you pay
your money-- as Chris said, it's not a large sum-- and hope that you never need
it.
David Millstone
Lebanon, NH
Chris and others: can you say more about the reasons to have insurance? I've
considered it but never heard of a situation where it was needed.
Bree Kalb
Carrboro, NC
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 22:26:41 -0400
From: "Chris Weiler (home)" <chris.weiler(a)weirdtable.org>
To: Shared Weight <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: [Callers] [Fwd: Callers Insurance]
Message-ID: <4BAAC9E1.4000000(a)weirdtable.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
If you don't have it, get it.
Chris Weiler
Goffstown, NH
-------- Original Message --------
Hello Callers,
So in late breaking news, CDSS now has callers insurance again! it is a
policy with Philadelphia, similar to what we had in past years. There was a
slight increase in price this year, it will be $55 per year The year for
this policy begins on April1 this year, so there will be no lapse in
coverage!
Information and applications can be found at
http://www.cdss.org/caller-insurance.html
Thanks everyone who chimed in to help! Makes perfect sense now that I look
at it, that the circle and rollaway should be in the first phrase of the A2,
and the gents allemanding and ladies orbiting in the second phrase.
Thank you David for reminding me about the RPLDW syllabi. I've said for
years that I need to get to that weekend and still haven't made it. Probably
why I never think to look there but I've added the link to my favorites now.
Bill actually got the answer to me first since I get this list as the digest
version and he emailed me directly as well. I was going to call the dance
again tonight but ended up switching it out for Money Musk instead!!
Yes Martha, I know all about your husband! I met both of you at the English
Weekend in STL last Labor Day.
I think it's really cool that you went to school with Martin, Lisa.
What a great resource this group is! Thanks again everyone.
Bev
