Contra Callers

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21 participants
4409 discussions

by John Sweeney

What a great discussion - some wonderful ideas and quotes to use. But I am afraid that I don't agree with everything that has been said, and I see some people have also already sent in some dissenting comments to some of the statements that have been made. Please forgive me if I have misunderstood anything, but the written word is not the best way to communicate, and American English v UK English can sometimes be a challenge as well. Someone said: "The ladies put their left hand over the gent's shoulder" I don't believe that it is a good idea to tell the lady to put her hand over the gent's shoulder. 1) Quite often the length of the man's arm and the relative heights and position of the bodies mean that it is not easy for the lady to reach there, so she ends up pulling him too close. 2) What is she going to do with it when she puts it there? She shouldn't be using it to hang on with as she should be keeping her own balance. 3) If you want to add any interesting variations, during the swing, or on the exit, then the lady's hand being stuck behind the man means you are very limited in what you can do without dislocating her shoulder. A MUCH better position for the lady's hand is resting gently on the man's upper arm so that she can turn in either direction easily. "and lean back very gently." I find it VERY dangerous to suggest to anyone that they should lean in any part of the dance. A swing should be an effortless, relaxed symmetrical, counter-balanced, coupling that both parties can enjoy. You are responsible for your own balance at all times in a dance. If you let go in a swing then you will move backwards because of centrifugal force, but you shouldn't fall over. Leaning back commits part of your weight to your partner who then has to waste their energy trying to stop you falling over; it takes them off balance and is very tiring. "If they can't hold themselves up, their hand is in the wrong place." They shouldn't be trying to hold themselves up by using their partner - that is what their legs are for! "Then I place the gent's hands and point out to the ladies that if it's uncomfortable they should tell the gent, as he probably won't know if you don't tell him." Absolutely, but you should also tell the men to let the ladies know if it is uncomfortable. The ladies can be just as bad - I have met ones who push, pull, lean, drag, lift, squeeze, strangle, clamp, grip, dig in or hang off the man! "Push gently against those pointy hands." Why? The connection is through the man's right hand on the lady's left shoulder-blade. Any tension you put into your other hands is wasted energy, and prevents interesting variations and exits (see article reference below). Someone else said: "The upper back remains essentially upright," Yes. "but pressing into the hands wrapped around them." Why? The man places his hand gently on the lady's left shoulder-blade. They spin. Centrifugal force will generate some pressure at the connection point. Why do you want any more? Pressing in causes discomfort and is completely unnecessary. I prefer to say gentle counter-balance rather than counter-weight - changes the emphasis to be more positive. The swing should be relaxed and the only tension you need to put into it is the minimum necessary to overcome the centrifugal force. It is dancing, not wrestling! :-) There have also been lots of references to "giving weight". This is a technical dance term, useful in a dance studio for certain dance styles when there is plenty of time to teach what it really means; but it is too easily misunderstood, resulting in people thinking that they have to lean backwards or pull. I try to avoid the term. I swing very fast and do countless variations of entry, swing-type, and exit. But only if my partner is balanced and relaxed! Otherwise I go for a slow swing and try to protect myself from injury. For a much fuller description of how I teach swinging please see: http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#swinging And more about technique in the article below it: http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#connection If you like either of those articles and want to use them you will find a downloaded PDF just below each article. If you want to improve your twirls (as in Ladies' Chains) and swing variations/entries/exits then you may find this article useful: http://www.modernjive.com/history/tension.html It was written for a different dance style, but the principles still apply. Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England <mailto:john@modernjive.com> john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 <http://www.modernjive.com> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events, Instructional DVDs and Interactive Maps <http://www.contrafusion.co.uk> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

14 years, 2 months

Implied Messages in First-Timer's Orientation (Was: Head Mikes and Mike Heads)

by Greg McKenzie

I meant to post this to the entire list. Here it is. - Greg ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Greg McKenzie <grekenzie(a)gmail.com> Date: Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [Callers] Head Mikes and Mike Heads To: Lewis Land <lewisland(a)windstream.net> Lewis wrote: I have to ask, what's the point of newcomers instruction if you're not going to teach a few basic dance figures to the novices? I can testify from much personal experience that some of those newcomers would end up standing frozen, terrified, and immobile after the music starts if they haven't had adequate instruction about the most common dance figures. I can only assume that Greg calls to a much more experienced crowd, where there are more seasoned dancers who can assist the novices. Good question. The answer is an involved area which can't be addressed here in any depth. But here are a few things to think about: Whenever a speaker talks to an audience it is the nonverbal component of her speech that has the greatest impact. Explicit instructions carry little weight compared to the implicit messages in the speaker's demeanor, voice inflection, tone, word choices, and actions. As Ralph Waldo Emerson once said: “What you are shouts so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you say.” As human beings we always look for hidden or implied messages in what others say. This is a natural part of how we communicate. We look for implied messages because they tell us what the speaker is really thinking, rather than what the speaker wants to present as a public persona. This is how cognitive frames are communicated and learned. You cannot not communicate. I don't want you to think I'm being critical or making too many assumptions. But it might help to examine some of the implied messages in your own comments. They are typical of most callers. Here are some conclusions one can make about the mental frame you have activated concerning first-time contra dancers: - At least some first-timers are likely to be "frozen, terrified, and immobile" at their first contra dance; - First-timers need to have either a "seasoned dancer" to assist them or separate "instruction" in order to avoid embarrassment or public failure: - "Seasoned dancers" are not readily available and/or are not inclined to partner with first-timers. This framing, and these ideas, are common amongst callers. The assumptions are that there will be many first-timers dancing together. Please put aside, for a moment, your opinion about whether or not these ideas are "true" and focus on the effect of these ideas upon those in the room who are looking for your implied messages. If you "believe" these ideas then there is no way you can conceal that fact from the dancers. None of us here is that good at deception. Your nonverbal and implied meanings will be obvious and almost everyone in the room will pick up on the implied messages and respond accordingly. The frame you have thus evoked in the brains of the dancers is, frankly, a rather dreadful one. For first-timers it is a frame in which they may very well fail and embarrass themselves in a public dance hall. Those who could help them are not that inclined to do so and this is why newcomers need separate organized instruction to reduce their chances of failure. Some of them, nevertheless, will fail. For your regular dancers the frame is also rather bleak. A small group of "seasoned dancers" are encouraged to partner with first-timers and should view this, not as an enjoyable experience, but rather as a duty. There is a good possibility that their novice partner will fail, and the "seasoned dancer" will then be a part of that. If you are not a "seasoned dancer" you should probably avoid partnering with first-timers. This is a self-fulfilling prophesy in action. Your expectations are being projected into the hall because of the frame you have activated in your own brain. How can you avoid this situation? The answer is to change the frame in your own brain to one that will assume the success of everyone in the hall. Assume that anyone with one night of experience dancing contras is qualified to partner with first-timers and that you will make that an enjoyable and successful experience. Assume that all of the regulars enjoy partnering with first-timers who are confident and ready to learn. Assume that all of the first-timers are fully prepared to partner with the regulars without any separate training. Assume that you will call appropriate dances so precisely and clearly that everyone will be able to dance confidently after only one walk-through. Making these kind of assumptions could be called delusional. It could also be called leadership. It depends upon the frame you are activating. These assumptions are not "true" or "false." It is about crafting a positive vision of the regular dancers, the first-timers, and the entire evening and projecting that vision into the room. It is about inspiring confidence in others by assuming your own success. It is, actually, the only way you will be able to accomplish your goal of calling well. Now, back to your question. If you are successful at making the above assumptions and if you are successful at adopting that frame about the regular dancers, the first-timers, and your own calling, you will recognize that teaching figures to the first-timers in a separate orientation is not only a wast of time. It also sends negative messages to all of the dancers in the hall. When you assume that all of the first-timers are going to be partnered with regular dancers, you will know that teaching the figures will take no longer than the time it takes for you to call out the name of each figure. Actually, it is the regulars who will "teach" the figures--and they will do it much more quickly and effectively than you could in any separate orientation session. Many of the comments and actions of callers are based upon expectations about the dancers that are not positive. If you think the dancers don't pick up on these implications you will not be able to call well. All callers need to foster a positive view of the dancers in the hall. When those assumptions are a part of your framing the situation will change and the implied messages being projected into the hall will also change. This is a powerful strategy to integrate the dance hall and to make your task as a caller much easier. Just a thought, Greg McKenzie

14 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Implied Messages in First-Timer's Orientation

by Marianne Tatom Letts

When I teach a newcomers' session, I focus on feeling that connection with the other dancers through shared weight. Generally we have 30 minutes scheduled but it takes enough time to get a quorum that I have only 15-20 minutes to teach the basics. 1. stand in circle, hold hands, raise toes to feel that the other dancers are helping support your weight 2. walk around the circle with slightly tensed arms, then noodle arms, to convey the difference 3. face partner around the circle and practice feeling the same kind of "positive tension" via allemandes (progress to new partner several times) 4. swing demo with experienced dancer in the middle so all can see that hands are on shoulder blades and right feet are lined up 5. if available, have trusted, experienced dancers go around to correct what people are doing in their swings (I do the same); progress several times; emphasize how to decline a fast swing by dragging feet slightly or using a walking step, or saying "I'm getting dizzy"; also emphasize hydrating and looking at a fixed point on the partner's face 6. if time permits, line up for a contra dance and go over progression with small circles rotating, then balancing, then passing through 7. if time permits, face across the set for ladies chain and R/L through (explained as "only the ladies change places" or "both couples change places"); this allows me to show the corkscrew twirl (with a trusted, experienced dancer I know won't hurt me) and how either party can decline a twirl At the end of the teaching session I tell them they've passed Contra Dancing 101 and it's time for a real dance. I like to call a dance with a hey for #3 on the program so I can give my famed hey tutorial. 1. take the place of someone in a set with otherwise experienced dancers 2. demo the hey with all weaving/looping 3. feign look of terrified new dancer, walk across in a straight line, turn and come back while the others weave around me, emphasizing that if you come back to where you started then you've done a hey 4. have the sets practice the hey once, then finish the walk-through and progress so they can practice with a new group; I almost always do two quick walk-throughs and then start the dance w/o rolling back. Cheers! -Marianne (Seattle)

14 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Implied Messages in First-Timer's Orientation

by David.Millstone＠valley.net

Following up on posts by Greg and Michael, I, too, don't focus on figures. Careful introduction of figures during the course of the dance allows new dancers to learn gradually the vocabulary of figures. More important than figures at such a pre-dance session is: Welcome! We're delighted you're here! followed by some tips that will help folks have a good time. I try to keep the tone light, with lots of humor. "At some point in the evening, probably near the start, you'll find yourself being asked to dance by someone you don't know. You first instinct may be to protest, 'I don't know what I'm doing!' Believe me, they already know that. [inevitably leads to a laugh from the dancers] That's why they asked you to dance. That's how we all learned. No one in this hall was born knowing how to do this." "It's possible that some of you are thinking, 'I don't want to ruin it for everyone in the hall.' All I can say about that is that you must have a pretty strong ego, to think that you have the power to ruin this for everyone else!" "At some point in the dance, you may get completely lost. This happens to all of us at some point. Here's my three-step guide for what to do when that happens: Smile. Keep your head up and your eyes open. Hold out both hands like this. [demo] That makes it easier for the folks around you-- your partner or your neighbor-- to help you get to where you need to be." David Millstone Lebanon, NH

14 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Heys Where Partners Meet

by David.Millstone＠VALLEY.NET

In Chris's extensive list, I noted Ted Sannella's dance "Bonny Jean." Named for Ted's wife, Jean, the dance was composed in 1975, and Ted said that as far as he knew it was the first modern contra dance to incorporate a hey for four. In my experience, heys didn't start to enter the contra repertoire very much until the 1980s, when it could take a very long time indeed to teach the unfamilar figure to dancers. Similarly, Ted's "Fiddleheads" incorporated a Petronella twirl decades before others started to explore that possibility. I'd recommend to any callers on the list who are not familiar with his two collections-- "Balance and Swing" and "Swing the Next"--that they obtain copies. They're available from CDSS and are very useful additions to any caller's library. David Millstone Lebanon, NH

14 years, 2 months

Heys Where Partners Meet

by John Sweeney

My wife and I like spinning off each other in Heys. But we very rarely meet in the middle of a Hey :-( Flirtation Reel is a great example of a dance where you meet your Partner in the middle of the Hey, but I can't find any other dances where that happens. Does anyone know of any other good dances where you meet your Partner in the middle of a Hey? Thanks. Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 http://www.contrafusion.co.uk <http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/> for Dancing in Kent

14 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Heys where partners meet

by Martha Wild

Hi, John, This isn't quite the same thing, but I like ricochet heys, and I thought it would be nice to be doing the ricochet with your own partner. So I wrote a couple of dances where partners meet in the hey. I suppose they could be done without the ricochet and the partners could spin off each other. In the first one, the 2s are doing the hey while the 1s ricochet. In the second the 1s hey while the 2s ricochet. The first is a little more difficult, but both 1s and 2s get to swing, even though it is unequal. The second has the ones swing and a neighbor swing. I first danced these heys in a dance called Huntsville's Queen Bee Hey by Jane Ewing, where the women walk the hey pattern while the men ricochet. I figured that if the men were doing the hey it would be a King Bee Hey (so I wrote one like that) and so I named these Worker Bee Hey #1 and #2. Didn't know they were called ricochet heys until later. I'm just copying these from a little book I put together, sorry if there is duplication of any details. It is also possible that version 2, if you leave out the ricochet hey aspect, may have been devised by someone else, as it is fairly straightforward. Worker Bee Hey #1 Martha Wild Duple improper September 24, 2006 A1 Down the set four in line (1s inside) Turn as couples and return*, face in^ A2 “Worker bee” hey@, 2s start passing right shoulder B1 2s gypsy and swing, end swing facing up! B2 Handy-hand allemande ~1 ½ times (2s on the inside to start) 1s swing and face down * A little odd as the men are on the right of the women for the turn. ^ The line is not bent, all just turn to face center, 2s facing each other, 1s behind. @ I thought it would be nice to do the push off of a “queen bee” hey with one’s own partner. In this case, the #2 couple does a full hey, passing right shoulders to start, while the #1 couple meets at the center and pushes off backwards in little counterclockwise circles. It helps to instruct the 1s to stand a little above the 2s while they swing so they see them when they end and are ready for the handy-hand allemande. Worker Bee Hey #2 Martha Wild Duple Improper September 24, 2006 A1 Do-si-do neighbor Swing neighbor A2 Four in line down the set Turn as couples, come back up B1 Face in, “Worker Bee” hey, 1s start^ B2 1s gypsy and swing ^ Worker bee hey is as described above. I like version 1 because both 1s and 2s get a partner swing. This is an easier version, but unequal. Martha Wild On Aug 21, 2011, at 9:00 AM, callers-request(a)sharedweight.net wrote: > Send Callers mailing list submissions to > callers(a)sharedweight.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > callers-request(a)sharedweight.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > callers-owner(a)sharedweight.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Callers digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Heys Where Partners Meet (John Sweeney) > 2. Re: Callers Digest, Vol 84, Issue 15 (Tom Hinds) > 3. Re: Heys Where Partners Meet (Luke Donev) > 4. Re: 50% rule (Richard Hart) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 12:32:23 +0100 > From: "John Sweeney" <info(a)contrafusion.co.uk> > To: <callers(a)sharedweight.net> > Subject: [Callers] Heys Where Partners Meet > Message-ID: <21E3296A26AB4820B1BCF3FF5D672895@JohnT400> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > My wife and I like spinning off each other in Heys. But we very > rarely > meet in the middle of a Hey :-( > > Flirtation Reel is a great example of a dance where you meet your > Partner in the middle of the Hey, but I can't find any other dances > where that happens. > > Does anyone know of any other good dances where you meet your > Partner in > the middle of a Hey? > > Thanks. > > Happy dancing, > John > > John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & > 07802 940 574 > http://www.contrafusion.co.uk <http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/> for > Dancing in Kent > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:28:00 -0400 > From: Tom Hinds <twhinds(a)earthlink.net> > To: callers(a)sharedweight.net > Subject: Re: [Callers] Callers Digest, Vol 84, Issue 15 > Message-ID: <94D71EA1-0AA5-4F85-971A-35A3C71E6B7B(a)earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Jim > > Although I can't answer your first question about keeping track of > all the dances, I can say something about what constitutes a new > dance. I remember Ted Sannella saying that a dance is new if it has > 50% new or unique choreography. By his definition if 50% or more of > the dance is different than any other dance then it's a new dance. > If a dance has less than 50% it's a variation. > > He didn't go into any more specifics and I wasn't wise enough to ask > any questions. But if you look at some of the old dances like > Petronella and Hull's victory, they have identical B parts and unique > A parts. The same applies to Chorus Jig and Rory O' More. > > Squares can also follow this 50% rule. For example there are a > number of squares like Queen's Quadrille that have unique A parts > while the B part is circle left half, swing corner, promenade. > > T > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:59:54 -0400 > From: Luke Donev <luke.donev(a)gmail.com> > To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Heys Where Partners Meet > Message-ID: > <CAFrKOZY9sQXDyCnd5RPtG=4fJVYUFGr+WZrSW=8-Mpj1wEahPg(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > John Sweeney <info(a)contrafusion.co.uk> wrote: > >> Flirtation Reel is a great example of a dance where you meet your >> Partner >> in the middle of the Hey, but I can't find any other dances where >> that >> happens. >> > > Hi John, > > I think the structure of Flirtation Reel (*http://tinyurl.com/ > 3mlyrtm*) > highlights why it's uncommon. The down the hall of *A1* seems the > cleanest > way of setting up partners back to back at the start of a hey for > *A2*. The > *B1* neighbor swing flows well after the hey, which leaves you *B2* > to get a > partner swing and progression in. > > There are ways to gain the choreographic latitude you'd need. > If you're willing to spread a hey across phrases (I've met folks > who detest > that) you could shorted the neighbor swing and still end the swing > on phrase > (as opposed to interrupting a swing half phrase, which is > unpopular). For > example: > > *Restless Sunday Morning* > Improper > *A1* > 2s half figure eight and a little more to face their partner in the > middle > of a line of four > 2s start a hey for four passing partner by left > *A2* > finish hey for four, 2s have extra pass in middle > Neighbor swing on gent's home side* > B1* > Circle Left, > Partner swing * > B2* > Ladies chain across, > long lines forward and back > > The *B*'s have a lot more freedom for the partner swing and > progression, > those are just some of what you could do. > > If you're against splitting the hey, you could compress the > position results > of the line of four: > > *After the Honeymoon* > Improper > start with the 1s between the 2s, facing neighbor > *A1* > Pass Neighbor by Right to start a hey > *A2* > Neighbor balance and swing > *B1* > Give and (men) take > Partner swing (gent's home side) > *B2* > Circle Left 3/4 > Balance the ring > 2s make an arch, 1s duck through and move down to between new 2s, > facing > out. > > I think as a style point, I might teach the *B2*'s arch duck as the > 1s drop > partner's hand and are somewhat hand-casted through the arch by > their 2s. > Without a few folks to play with it in my living room, I'm not sure > yet. > > The *B1*'s give and take could be a Circle Left 3/4 for a simpler > dance, but > there's already a circle left in the dance, and I'm guessing this > wouldn't > be called in a situation where a give and take was problematic. > > I can't say that these are *good* dances where you pass your > partner mid-set > in a hey; but they're dances. Thanks for the question that got my > brain > choreographing. Hopefully others chip in (especially if I accidentally > re-wrote someone's dance). > > -- > Luke Donev > Luke.Donev(a)gmail.com > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:50:04 -0400 > From: Richard Hart <rich(a)harts.mv.com> > To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] 50% rule > Message-ID: <4E511B1C.4050800(a)harts.mv.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > There's one dance variation that I've recently noticed. > > Recently, I've noticed that callers and dancers have slightly > changed some existing dances. In both cases that I remember (Trip > to Lambertville & Tica Tica Timing) a R&L over has been changed to > a promenade across. Rights and lefts do seem to be more difficult, > especially at bigger dances, and with a larger proportion of > beginners. The promenade does appear to make the dance smoother in > these cases. > > Is it really true that right & lefts are becoming less popular in > large MUCDs? Are other dances being modified in this way now? > > Rich Hart. > > Tom Hinds remarked on 8/21/2011 9:28 AM: >> Jim >> >> Although I can't answer your first question about keeping track of >> all the dances, I can say something about what constitutes a new >> dance. I remember Ted Sannella saying that a dance is new if it >> has 50% new or unique choreography. By his definition if 50% or >> more of the dance is different than any other dance then it's a >> new dance. If a dance has less than 50% it's a variation. >> >> He didn't go into any more specifics and I wasn't wise enough to >> ask any questions. But if you look at some of the old dances >> like Petronella and Hull's victory, they have identical B parts >> and unique A parts. The same applies to Chorus Jig and Rory O' More. >> >> Squares can also follow this 50% rule. For example there are a >> number of squares like Queen's Quadrille that have unique A parts >> while the B part is circle left half, swing corner, promenade. >> >> T >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)sharedweight.net >> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers >> >> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)sharedweight.net > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers > > > End of Callers Digest, Vol 84, Issue 16 > ***************************************

14 years, 2 months

Re: [Callers] Callers Digest, Vol 84, Issue 15

by Tom Hinds

Jim Although I can't answer your first question about keeping track of all the dances, I can say something about what constitutes a new dance. I remember Ted Sannella saying that a dance is new if it has 50% new or unique choreography. By his definition if 50% or more of the dance is different than any other dance then it's a new dance. If a dance has less than 50% it's a variation. He didn't go into any more specifics and I wasn't wise enough to ask any questions. But if you look at some of the old dances like Petronella and Hull's victory, they have identical B parts and unique A parts. The same applies to Chorus Jig and Rory O' More. Squares can also follow this 50% rule. For example there are a number of squares like Queen's Quadrille that have unique A parts while the B part is circle left half, swing corner, promenade. T

14 years, 2 months

multitides of dances

by Jim Phillips

1 I've always wondered how one can know if choreographers are duplicating some dance that's already been done? Is it pretty much always callers comparing notes or is anyone out there making attempts to catalog dances move by move, maybe in a spreadsheet or something like that? 2 Comparing dances, how much variation between sequences qualifies a dance as an individual separate dance, or is custom that rigid? My question is prompted by: In another thread Linda Leslie wrote about "Rollin To The Grey Eagle" "I have this same dance in my collection with the name "32 Seconds" by Tom Calwell. I don't know who might have written it first." Thanks Jim, Not a caller just lurking.

14 years, 2 months

Contact information for Hank Morris

by Bob Green

Two questions: Does anyone have an email address or contact information for Hank Morris? (please send off-list, thanks) I have the name of his dance as *Rollin' to the Grey Eagle, *but I believe this might not be exactly right, does anyone know for certain? I have rendered a video of the dance for the dance archive that I would like to get his permission to use. thanks, Bob Green

14 years, 2 months

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